並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E9%80%99%E4%B8%8D%E6%98%AF%E6%96%B0%E8%81%9E%E8%82%A1%E5%B8%82%E7%AF%87-%E6%9D%B1%E6%A3%AE%E9%9B%BB%E8%A6%96-9NB-Gn1Hu6K/